Super long CN trains.

[Toppysager]

i was off of manhattan St. in Toledo yesterday waiting for the daily CN train from Lang yard. The train is a daily mixed freight consist bound for CSX's Stanley yard. At around 5:20 the CN came around the wye there with a BCrail and a Cp-30t trailing which was intereseting, but the highlight of the train was that it was 191 cars! Of the `2,900 trains I have recorded since 2009, only 3 have been 190 cars or more. Recently I have seen those Staneybound CN trains reach wll into the 160s and 170s in reguards to their length. Is there a particular eason why they run them so long on those movements? I have seen too many long ones to count it out as a coincidence. thanks.

[CSX_CO]

Of the `2,900 trains I have recorded since 2009, only 3 have been 190 cars or more. Recently I have seen those Staneybound CN trains reach wll into the 160s and 170s in reguards to their length. Is there a particular eason why they run them so long on those movements? I have seen too many long ones to count it out as a coincidence. thanks.

Because CN is too cheap to run two trains out of that many cars, and the other Class I's have more sense then to do that with any regularity.

Practic Safe CSX

[AARR]

Of the `2,900 trains I have recorded since 2009, only 3 have been 190 cars or more. Recently I have seen those Staneybound CN trains reach wll into the 160s and 170s in reguards to their length. Is there a particular eason why they run them so long on those movements? I have seen too many long ones to count it out as a coincidence. thanks.

Because CN is too cheap to run two trains out of that many cars, and the other Class I's have more sense then to do that with any regularity.

Practic Safe CSX

Since EHH left CN has continued the practice of running 10,000' trains however they have added quite a few locals that simply run cars from one yard to another because the mammoth manifests would take up too much room setting out and picking up cars in-between terminal points. For example there is a local that runs Lang to Flat Rock with frames from CSX and vehicles from Dearborn. If EHH were still around I don't know if the locals would have been added.

[Y@]

Pretty normal for Z247 to run that long. I've seen it with 219 cars once.

[alittlevanwerty]

When are good times to catch CN trains in Toledo. Last time we were there we saw a striped one heading through Vickers to the CN yard, may have been this train. Couldn't get ahead of them as I am not too familiar with the lines and roads through Toledo.

[railohio]

The CN trains through Toledo run Flat Rock to Bellevue (and reverse) over Norfolk Southern and the Ann Arbor. They usually pass in Toledo in the morning. The CN trains to Toledo terminate at Lang Yard along Interstate 75. The southbound originates in Toronto and used to (3-4 years ago) come down the Shore Line Sub in mid-afternoon. The one time I saw the northbound that originates in Toledo it was through Monroe, Mich., just after sunrise in the summer. There is also a transfer job that run between Lang Yard and CSX in Walbridge.

[Y@]

There is also a transfer job that run between Lang Yard and CSX in Walbridge.

Z247 runs Lang to Stanley, not Walbridge... Typically in the middle of the day/early afternoon. Returns in the evening or after dark.

[railohio]

There is also a transfer job that run between Lang Yard and CSX in Walbridge.

Z247 runs Lang to Stanley, not Walbridge... Typically in the middle of the day/early afternoon. Returns in the evening or after dark.

Thanks. I said "in Walbridge" because I didn't know what yard it ran to.

[Toppysager]

[quote="alittlevanwerty"]When are good times to catch CN trains in Toledo. Last time we were there we saw a striped one heading through Vickers to the CN yard, may have been this train. Couldn't get ahead of them as I am not too familiar with the lines and roads through Toledo.[/quo
J
From experience the SB usually reaches Vickers Diamond (just North of Wal
bridge between 12:30 and 2. It usually returns North up the CSX at around 4-4:45. The CN I saw didn't leave Lang Yard till 5:20.howver the times I listed earlier are your best chances. You can expect about a 3 hr-4hr gap between the SB and the return trip.

[bnsfben]

Running 10,000' trains has proved to be economical for CN. Think about it from a BUSINESS stand point, and remember, the whole point of the business is to make money and be efficient:

Benefits
-Long trains=fewer crews=less labor costs
-Long trains makes for easier dispatching, provided siding lengths are long enough (which they are almost everywhere on CN)
-Long trains allow for better locomotive utilization

Drawbacks
-Difficult train handling
-Blocking railroad crossings for longer periods of time
-Difficult switching

In my opinion CN's long trains are a good business idea. I know the drawbacks, but railroads can teach crews how to deal with long trains in training classes. Most of the bickering has come from conductors and engineers union because the crews simply don't want to do more work than what they absolutely have to. Many crews, not all, just love to complain about stuff because they actually might have to leave the cab for more than 5 minutes.

[Saturnalia]

Drawbacks
-Blocking railroad crossings for longer periods of time

Really, operating land barges does not block crossings longer, or at least not much in the case of slower speeds due to length.

Your grade crossing will turn on 20 seconds early, and extinguish about 10-15 seconds after the last car clears. So for each train, you have t=n+35 for crossing block times, where n is time in minutes where the train actually occupies the crossing, and t is total time.

To compare, we'll take one 150 car train vs two 75 car trains. Assuming speed is equal, the two 75 car trains will take about 35 seconds LONGER to clear up than the single barge. In many cases, however, the barge is moving slower due to extra distance to clear speed restrictions, and slower acceleration. But at 30mph, that is about 1,500 feet of train that can clear before the longer one takes more time.

Another angle is meets. If a siding is involved, then the train in the hole, assuming it is long enough, will have to stop. Generally, all crossings will be blocked for about 10-20 minutes, depending on how long it takes the sided train to hole up and emerge, plus wait time for the meeting train. But if you run 2 trains instead of four, that is two whole meets that vanish.

So in general, there is no major difference in crossing foul time two trains vs one if both have the same total length. Sometimes less, sometimes a little more, but it all makes out to mush as far as really mattering.

[midland sub]

Thank god I have a teenage kid that never has held a job, is here to let us know how railroads and the business world work. Thanks MQT!!

[MagnumForce]

You boggle my mind, a train twice as long will take twice as long to clear and even more so if it is slow. 2 shorter trains take less time individually then you can go. There are some trains blocking crossings going around the Wye for 10 minutes, if they were longer that is twenty, how can you say that isn't a difference?

[CSX_CO]

Really, operating land barges does not block crossings longer, or at least not much in the case of slower speeds due to length.

Do the math on a 2 mile train running 20 to 25 mph, vs two 75 car trains running 40 to 50 mph. For the sake of arguing, we'll simplify the math. 150 car train = 2 miles, and 75 car trains = 1 mile each. At 50 mph, it takes 1.2 minutes to move a mile. Two trains would take ~2 minutes from 'approach' to 'clearing' the crossing, or four minutes total, with time between trains for traffic to move. One two mile train running 20 mph would take 3 minutes to move a mile, or 6 minutes total to clear said crossing. How is that less delay again? The only way the delay would be 'less' on a 2 mile train is if you're able to maintain the same speed as the 2 one mile long trains. If you're powering up the train as if it were two, you're losing the 'efficiency' you're touting.

You've obviously never seen the 'land barges' CN runs on the former IC. They get away with it, relatively flat profile, not much traffic etc. 2 engines in notch 8 and moving along at 15 to 20 mph isn't going to kill them. It does on a railroad that gets much traffic if you're not going to power it up. There's a reason I've had some of my best trips on 140 car trains. No place to stop them, and any time you start and stop a train, that is when you encounter problems.

Not to mention time to enter and leave mains, sidings, etc. Yard capacity can be a problem. If you're yards aren't equipped to handle 2 mile long trains, then you're losing efficiency in having to 'double' them into the yard. Two 75 car trains may be 'easier' for a yard to 'digest' then trying to eat 150 cars at once. Doubling over takes a LOT of time, blocks yards, etc.

Running 10,000' trains has proved to be economical for CN. Think about it from a BUSINESS stand point, and remember, the whole point of the business is to make money and be efficient:

In my opinion CN's long trains are a good business idea. I know the drawbacks, but railroads can teach crews how to deal with long trains in training classes. Most of the bickering has come from conductors and engineers union because the crews simply don't want to do more work than what they absolutely have to. Many crews, not all, just love to complain about stuff because they actually might have to leave the cab for more than 5 minutes.

Thanks for the insight from the outside...glad you know what 'we' think. Yes, those 150 to 200 car trains look 'great' on paper. Reality is much different. It isn't about 'work' its about being out there at 0300 when you have a problem 140 cars back. That's where you have the problems, its never 10 cars back, its not 30 cars back, it is ALWAYS at the rear. Murphy was a railroader. Not to mention time to pump air on 150 cars, associated train handling problems, and metallurgy of knuckles. See above for handing said trains at terminals too.

Q364 last night left Avon with over 10,000' of train and 14,000 tons. Double and a shop car to kick out. Throw in engine problems. Crew was on duty at 2300, 'due out' at 0200. Didn't leave until almost 0315. Needed 3 big AC units to move the tonnage. Yard was 'blocked' for 4 hrs while they did their work. 2 trains would have left MUCH faster, and made better over all time from 'point to point', with only 1 increase in locomotives, and 1 crew. I didn't look, but wouldn't surprise me that train needed a recrew, so 'crew savings' were a wash. Again, looks great on paper, and is great when everything goes right...

Thank god I have a teenage kid that never has held a job, is here to let us know how railroads and the business world work. Thanks MQT!!

Amen to that...

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

Another angle is meets. If a siding is involved, then the train in the hole, assuming it is long enough, will have to stop. Generally, all crossings will be blocked for about 10-20 minutes, depending on how long it takes the sided train to hole up and emerge, plus wait time for the meeting train. But if you run 2 trains instead of four, that is two whole meets that vanish.

That analogy only works when you have no length restrictions on a railroad. Only 'single track' railroad with no length restrictions would be called 'double track'. All SINGLE track railroads have length restrictions. It may be 15,000 ft, but that is a luxury. Most have 8,000 to 9,000 ft restrictions in one direction or another. You have to build the trains to the SHORTEST siding a route, not the longest. You can't run two 10,000 ft long trains 'at each other' on single track if you have no place to meet them.

Oh, and FYI, most railroads don't give a crap about crossing delays. Its a 'nuisance' fine to them, a 'cost of doing business' if you will. So I really don't get the 'obsession' about delays at road crossings. Most places have multiple routes to get around a point. Those that don't, don't get blocked. Point of the matter, railroads will try and 'hold off crossings' if the delay is going to be 45 minutes and 'up', but otherwise they just pay the fine.

Again, leave the railroading to the professionals and you keep living in your paper railroad world.

Practice Safe CSX

[redside20]

The future looks so bright

[MagnumForce]

[JStryker722]

There is always the option that during extended delays in a siding,particularly when a train happens to go died on hours to split the train at the crossing if there is one in the middle of the crossing when feasible. I've only really seen NS do it more than anyone else.

[BnOEngr]

There is also a transfer job that run between Lang Yard and CSX in Walbridge.

Used to be. Z241. Now handled by CSX yard jobs.

[bnsfben]

CSX_CO I don't believe your statement is necessarily true. CN runs 12,000 ft trains on their single track section of the Flint sub. The shortest siding is Lapeer at 10,000 feet or so.