Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Definitive Thread

[jrgerber]

ALCOs didn't work out because they are a "special" type of engine and not what the mechanics from outside the MSO were used too. The only ALCO still rostered by Pioneer is a former Conrail RS3m with an EMD prime mover (12-567 I believe). It is currently dead at Laharpe Shop with traction motor leads cut by vandals. $60,000 to repair.

I'm going to assume (a big assumption) that it would be cheaper for Pioneer to fix the deadline locomotives rather than purchase another used locomotive considering how prices have largely increased over the years for used EMD power.

[Bulby]

ALCOs didn't work out because they are a "special" type of engine and not what the mechanics from outside the MSO were used too. The only ALCO still rostered by Pioneer is a former Conrail RS3m with an EMD prime mover (12-567 I believe). It is currently dead at Laharpe Shop with traction motor leads cut by vandals. $60,000 to repair.

I'm going to assume (a big assumption) that it would be cheaper for Pioneer to fix the deadline locomotives rather than purchase another used locomotive considering how prices have largely increased over the years for used EMD power.

For most of the deadline, they are vandalized or had a major failure that resulted in them being sidelined. At $60,000 to fix an engine that has had the traction motor leads cut; it isn't that cost effective. That accounts for 102 and 1600 (at least, more may have been cut while stored). Others have been used to provide parts to sisters that are running. Overall, the majority of the deadline will not run again unless the cost of parts goes down, and the cost of EMD 1st gen. 4-axles goes up even more.

Of course, there has been talk of replacing some of the less reliable engines (mostly GP20s) with GP38-2s. That, however, will happen as soon as Amtrak turns a profit... On the other hand, Pioneer does need to buy some new power.

[bumthum]

Of course, there has been talk of replacing some of the less reliable engines (mostly GP20s) with GP38-2s. That, however, will happen as soon as Amtrak turns a profit... On the other hand, Pioneer does need to buy some new power.

This is the problem a lot of smaller Class II and Class III railroads are running into. For instance, back out east where I am originally from, Pan Am has ample 4-axle power in their deadline with various ailments big and small. However used 6-axle power, like the SD40-2, is still running in the $100K range so it makes more sense, given their horsepower needs, to buy used 6-axle power than to fix what's in the deadline. GP38 and GP40 power isn't cheap though, 6-axle units are normally going for less, and good condition 4-axle units are in demand... I'm not sure Pioneer wouldn't be better off having their GP20's rebuilt one or two at a time until/if the price of newer 4-axle units comes down. All things considered, for the size of the ND&W there is a lot of motive power tied up in the operation, three properly functioning road locomotives ought to be able to handle their trains with a large switcher in Woodburn for that end of the operation. I may be misjudging the situation though.

[Bulby]

I'm not sure Pioneer wouldn't be better off having their GP20's rebuilt one or two at a time until/if the price of newer 4-axle units comes down.

Pioneer would be much better off rebuilding the deadline GP20s into GP20ECOs with a 8-710 engine to replace the infernal contraption that is a 16-567D2 with 645 power assemblies. I curse whoever came up with that hair brained idea. (and I happen to believe 16-567Cs are one of the absolute best engines ever designed)

Will this happen? Not likely; cheaper to buy more rent-a-wreck 1st generation 4-axles than do a rebuilding program on the 20s. Personally, I'd like to see the GP16s get new cabs (no more cold air seeping in through every crevice in the winter), air conditioning, and electrical equipment (AR-10 alternator, newer traction motors, etc.) and uprate the 16-645s in them to the design 2,000 hp. That would result in a locomotive that is mechanically a GP38-2, even if it was but as a GP7 or 9.

6-axles are cheap because a lot of shortlines don't like the things. Big, heavy, track killers, and more stuff that can go wrong (2 extra traction motors may seem like little, but there is a cost to maintain motors). A good condition GP38-2 is worth more now than when they were new, because you just can't buy an engine as good as a 38-2 any more.

All things considered, for the size of the ND&W there is a lot of motive power tied up in the operation, three properly functioning road locomotives ought to be able to handle their trains with a large switcher in Woodburn for that end of the operation. I may be misjudging the situation though.

A minimum of 4 engines are needed on the ND&W: one to operate out of Woodburn, a switch engine for Defiance, a switch engine in Napoleon, and a road engine to work between Defiance and Napoleon or Cecil. This, however does not include downtime for inspections, things also break down, blow up, derail, or just generally don't work. 6 engines is pretty much the minimum with track conditions the way they are. If the track were better, you might get by with 5 engines, but you don't stay in business long if you can't switch the customer because you don't have enough operable power. If current trends continue, I'd expect NDW to need a seventh engine before too long.

[DelayInBlock]

Bulby, you sir are very wise. One of the most level headed folks I've seen post here. A wise assessment.

[AARR]

A minimum of 4 engines are needed on the ND&W: one to operate out of Woodburn, a switch engine for Defiance, a switch engine in Napoleon, and a road engine to work between Defiance and Napoleon or Cecil. This, however does not include downtime for inspections, things also break down, blow up, derail, or just generally don't work. 6 engines is pretty much the minimum with track conditions the way they are. If the track were better, you might get by with 5 engines, but you don't stay in business long if you can't switch the customer because you don't have enough operable power. If current trends continue, I'd expect NDW to need a seventh engine before too long.

Is there enough work to keep each crew/engine busy for 8 hours or more per day? Is there enough traffic to justify the cost of 4 crews/engines?

[CSX_CO]

A minimum of 4 engines are needed on the ND&W: one to operate out of Woodburn, a switch engine for Defiance, a switch engine in Napoleon, and a road engine to work between Defiance and Napoleon or Cecil. This, however does not include downtime for inspections, things also break down, blow up, derail, or just generally don't work. 6 engines is pretty much the minimum with track conditions the way they are. If the track were better, you might get by with 5 engines, but you don't stay in business long if you can't switch the customer because you don't have enough operable power. If current trends continue, I'd expect NDW to need a seventh engine before too long.

Is there enough work to keep each crew/engine busy for 8 hours or more per day? Is there enough traffic to justify the cost of 4 crews/engines?

My thoughts exactly. That many engines is really going to add to the bottom line.

Practice Safe Csx

[Y@]

I witness it every day. Yes, there is enough going on to warrant having six or seven operable engines on property.

[CSX_CO]

I witness it every day. Yes, there is enough going on to warrant having six or seven operable engines on property.

Having them on property or out running around? There is a difference. I think the expense of having 6 or 7 engines would be better spent getting track up to 10 or 15 running and then you wouldn't need 7 engines to serve everyone in 12 hrs.

Practice Safe Csx

[cbehr91]

What radio channel do they use? I saw them switching in Woodburn and they didn't seem to be talking on the channel I thought they use. Can anyone confirm?

[AARR]

I'm trying to recall how many carloads ND&W handles annually. IIRC it was around 3000. Can someone confirm?

[railohio]

What radio channel do they use? I saw them switching in Woodburn and they didn't seem to be talking on the channel I thought they use. Can anyone confirm?

39 when it was MAW

[MagnumForce]

39

And listen to Bulby, he knows far more about Pioneer Rail than most here may realize...

[MagnumForce]

I'm not overly familiar with Wabash operations on that line but did their Buffalo-Chicago passenger service take that route? If so then an E unit or PA would likely have been used on that trackage, yes I know that was a long time ago, it does show some 6-axle usage beside IHRC's RSD's if they did run on that track. At the point it is all kina of moot as Pioneer seems to be getting the track slowly up to snuff, at least for 5mph operation.

Buffalo to Chicago trains went via Canada then Detroit to Montpelier then Montpelier to Chicago.

The Toledo to Fort Wayne route has been a secondary route since about 1900. Superceded by the Toledo to Chicago and Detroit to Fort Wayne lines.

The trackage is good for 10 MPH, they go 10 MPH and honestly they don't need to go faster than that.

[jimnorthwood]

I'm trying to recall how many carloads ND&W handles annually. IIRC it was around 3000. Can someone confirm?

Recently somebody posted to this board, likely to this thread although I didn't search for it, a couple of copies of Pioneer annual reports or other documents to that effect. In one of those documents mention was made as to how the ND&W handled about 2,000 carloads, which made it modestly profitable (that may not have been the exact term although pretty close) although the cash flow generated by the ND&W made a significant contribution to the overall bottom line of Pioneer. The "modestly profitable" probably takes into account the significant amount of money Pioneer has spent and probably continues to spend rehabilitating the line. 2,000 carloads is a good traffic base for this line, and I'm willing to bet that will increase as Pioneer continues to market the ND&W to potential new shippers.

I don't get a chance to see the ND&W that often, but it seems that more of the cars that are destined for Napoleon are now interchanged at Woodburn, IN with NS. This since the re-opening of the Defiance-Cecil trackage, which MAW used very little if at all. How much interchange is now done at Woodburn with NS, vs at Defiance with CSX?

[AARR]

Recently somebody posted to this board, likely to this thread although I didn't search for it, a couple of copies of Pioneer annual reports or other documents to that effect. In one of those documents mention was made as to how the ND&W handled about 2,000 carloads, which made it modestly profitable (that may not have been the exact term although pretty close) although the cash flow generated by the ND&W made a significant contribution to the overall bottom line of Pioneer. The "modestly profitable" probably takes into account the significant amount of money Pioneer has spent and probably continues to spend rehabilitating the line. 2,000 carloads is a good traffic base for this line, and I'm willing to bet that will increase as Pioneer continues to market the ND&W to potential new shippers.

Thanks jim. I knew it was here somewhere but with 46 pages at 20 posts per page it would take me too much time to find it.

Here's why I asked. 2000 carloads = about 40ish a week or around 8 per weekday. So when estimating assignments and number of engines this has to be taken into account. Does it really take 3-4 assignments (or 7) to switch 8 cars per day?

Let's say traffic is up to 3000 a year (50% growth would be amazing but possible). That's about 12ish cars per day. Same question about how many assignments it takes to switch 12 cars a day.

You can do the same estimating with 16 a day or 20 or any number you choose.

Then the revenue has to be considered. I would bee surprised if ND&W is making a lot of money on the box car traffic which is probably the majority of those 8 or whatever cars per day. These days box car traffic has to be competitive with intermodal and intermodal is one of the lowest profitable commodities handled by railroads. The bulk commodities (cement, chemicals, feed, grain, plastic pellets, whatever Johns Manville receives) probably offer better profit margins.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their number of job assignments and engines estimations. I don't know enough to say either way. But it would surprise me if ND&W needs more than two or three jobs per day. A day crew out of Defiance working to Napoleon and back (with a night crew to dog catch them and return to Defiance as necessary). And another crew to work Defiance during the day and the west end as needed.

[jimnorthwood]

I don't know anything about railroad tariffs/pricing. But I have read that boxcar commodities constitute some of the lower margin traffic that railroads haul. I believe that much of the ND&W boxcar traffic consists of tomato paste from California, bound for one or both of the cold storage warehouses in Napoleon and then, via truck, to Campbell's soup. HJ Heinz in Fremont, OH also receives tomato paste from CA in boxcars, so perhaps there is something about the margins on this particular commodity that make it worth doing. ND&W is parallel to U.S. 24 for its entire length, and the fact that they have maintained the traffic level that they have is very commendable, especially considering that MAW and even predecessor IHRC apparently put little if any money into the physical plant. Indeed one wonders why Campbell's didn't just get fed up with the MAW and switch all of its inbound paste to truck. Pioneer doesn't want to see that happen, obviously, and so they probably crew the railroad at a much higher level than MAW did, or could. They are very committed to growing the business and offering much improved service to current customers to boot.

[CSX_CO]

Indeed one wonders why Campbell's didn't just get fed up with the MAW and switch all of its inbound paste to truck. Pioneer doesn't want to see that happen, obviously, and so they probably crew the railroad at a much higher level than MAW did, or could. They are very committed to growing the business and offering much improved service to current customers to boot.

Because I bet for them to switch to trucks to move the paste from California would cost an arm and a leg on an already low margin product. Railroads don't have to provide 'Great' customer service, just 'good' enough service that the customers aren't forced to switch to trucks. The vast majority of customers may threaten to go to truck, but unless they get a great rate on getting their product moved by truck, it is an empty threat. Most customers who still use rail, are someone 'tied' to it because they really can't go to trucks economically. So, while Pioneer isn't looking to drive business away, they aren't going to be stupid and raise their bottom line so high as to be borderline unprofitable.

I was bored today, and did some figuring in regards to that whole needing 7 engines on the MAW. At Avon, we operate 363 days a year, around the clock, with no stoppages. We have 3 puller jobs, 2 hump jobs, and 1 van job that all require power sets. So, we have a 'need' for 6 engine sets on any given day. Because it is RCO, we're obviously tied into engines that are thus equipped. Assigned to Avon is the 2440, 2441, 2442, 8249, 8480 (usually M.U.'d to 8487 for a 'big' hump set), 8477 , 8466, 8816, 1313, and 1312. When everything is 'here', the 1313 and 1312 are usually paired up with the 8477 and 8466. However, because of mechanical failures, and boo-boos, the 1312 is M.U.'d to a leased 4 axle to give us a backup set. 8466 is off getting worked at Huntington or Cumberland. 1313 is out due to wreck damage. We just received the 2440 back from one of those heavy repair shops for repairs. 8618 has been at Huntington for well over 6 months getting a rebuild after a blown turbo. So, right now, we have 7 'sets' assigned to us. 6 jobs to be covered by 7 sets of power (available in service at any given time) at an operation that runs 24x7 almost 365 days a year.

So, no way the NDW needs 7 engines assigned to it. The LIRC is probably double, to triple in length, and handles probably 10 times the car loads as the NDW gets by with only 11 engines on the property. When Potash off the INRD was running, they were running 8000 to 10,000 ton trains, and would need that much power. Unless the NDW starts running similar tonnages (provided they don't have problems with the track first) I don't see how you could justify needing 7 engines on that property. Even with mechanical failures and/or inspections.

Even if the NDW needed double header sets to start moving cars, you could run that railroad with 3, 4, or 5 engines, just like they are doing now. Averaging 8 car loads moved a day certainly doesn't warrant double headed consists. The money would be better invested getting the track up to a sustainable 10 or 15 mph so that running the entire length of the line, working customers, and back would be easily accomplished in 12 hrs. Even then, it may not be operational feasible to do that, so you would still need a pair of jobs on the line.

For giggles, lets break down the numbers. I'm going to assume Pioneer probably pays their guys somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 to $15 an hour. Lets just say they make $150 a day for working 12 hrs. If that is on the low side, then these numbers will look worse. It is entirely likely Pioneer pays less. AFAIK, they have two crews working at any given time, so $600 in crew costs on a given day. Again, may be high, may be low. We'll assume they 'own' the locomotives, and aren't on some daily lease payment, so engine cost is $0 (not really, but for the sake of this scenario we'll assume it is). I would guess they burn somewhere between 100 to 200 gallons of fuel a 'day'. I know our puller sets burn about 200 to 250 gallons a shift (we can get 5 days between fueling on our SD40-2s) but they're probably working a lot harder, so we'll assume 100 gallons a day for the NDW. Pioneer probably has a contract to buy fuel, but even the Class One's can't get it for much less than $2 a gallon. We'll just assume Pioneer gets it for $2 a gallon, could be more, could be less, and I'm guessing it may be slightly more given the fact that Pioneer probably has a contract with a local fuel dealer to deliver the fuel. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but likely they're spending around $200 for fuel for each locomotive. Now we're up to $500 per engine and crew per day just to go out and 'play', so between $500 to $1000 just to go out and fire the crews up on a given day. Some of this is variable because I would bet Pioneer has the guys doing track work on the days they're not running the engines and moving cars. Still have the crew costs, just not the engine costs. I believe I read that Pioneer is using people of the MSO operation to 'fill in' at the NDW, though if they have a full crew of their own employees they don't work for free, so it may be they only have 1 crew a day and some days two when the work warrants it. So, again, $500 to a $1000 just to move the engines or have people out doing MOW work in lieu of revenue work. Averaging 8 cars a day (2000 car figure), you're looking at needing earning $125 a car (and up for profits) to cover your costs. From what I remember being on Y101 out of Defiance, 8 to 10 cars a day was a pretty good 'average'. Even if they generate 3000 a year, 11 cars a day, you're still needing to be at $100 to 'break even' and over that to turn a profit to reinvest back in the property or repay the 'owners' of the property. Not unreasonable, but start throwing in having extra engines around, extra crews, etc and suddenly your per car revenue needs to start going up and up. With the nature of the business handled, that thin profit margin starts getting thin really quickly.

But hey, purely speculation on my end, but you can see how fast the 'variable' costs add up. That scenario doesn't even take into account the property taxes they pay, cost for track materials to bring the ROW up to snuff (its $75 to $100 per tie to buy new ones), utility payments to keep the lights on, etc. I would imagine that Pioneer sees the numbers the same way, and hence why you don't have 7 engines on that property. Unless business spikes, they aren't needed operationally speaking (not when a 24x7 operation running 6 jobs the clock gets away with 7 sets), and that expense is going to add up quickly.

Practice Safe CSX

[bumthum]

A minimum of 4 engines are needed on the ND&W: one to operate out of Woodburn, a switch engine for Defiance, a switch engine in Napoleon, and a road engine to work between Defiance and Napoleon or Cecil. This, however does not include downtime for inspections, things also break down, blow up, derail, or just generally don't work. 6 engines is pretty much the minimum with track conditions the way they are. If the track were better, you might get by with 5 engines, but you don't stay in business long if you can't switch the customer because you don't have enough operable power. If current trends continue, I'd expect NDW to need a seventh engine before too long.

Yeah, I guess I can see that given the current conditions. Every time there is a derailment, which cannot be re-railed immediately, then some portion of the line becomes isolated, so a locomotive in each town requiring regular switching is probably a must at this point. I'm not sure what the going rate for an SW is but I would bet GP20s are more readily available at competitive prices.

Buffalo to Chicago trains went via Canada then Detroit to Montpelier then Montpelier to Chicago.

The Toledo to Fort Wayne route has been a secondary route since about 1900. Superceded by the Toledo to Chicago and Detroit to Fort Wayne lines.

The trackage is good for 10 MPH, they go 10 MPH and honestly they don't need to go faster than that.

Thanks for the info. As I said, I am not overly familiar with the full history of the line... it was just a thought. I wasn't aware that they were making 10mph though, I guess I would consider that impressive given the condition of the line. Pan Am operates many of their lines at 10mph and they are in much better condition. Every time I have "chased" the MAW or ND&W there was a derailment somewhere on the line, it seems 10mph might be excessive given their conditions, although I realize there are other contributing factors.

Is there enough work to keep each crew/engine busy for 8 hours or more per day? Is there enough traffic to justify the cost of 4 crews/engines?

Typically, they don't utilize a "crew" per locomotive in service. The crew travels to and from work as needed... locomotives are staged throughout the line to be used when and where they are needed.

But hey, purely speculation on my end, but you can see how fast the 'variable' costs add up. That scenario doesn't even take into account the property taxes they pay, cost for track materials to bring the ROW up to snuff (its $75 to $100 per tie to buy new ones), utility payments to keep the lights on, etc. I would imagine that Pioneer sees the numbers the same way, and hence why you don't have 7 engines on that property. Unless business spikes, they aren't needed operationally speaking (not when a 24x7 operation running 6 jobs the clock gets away with 7 sets), and that expense is going to add up quickly.

Yeah the last time I was out to see the ND&W there were three locomotives in Defiance and they only used one (two GP20s and the switcher). There was another GP20 dealing with a derailment over by Auglaize Village, the Gettysburg unit was in Napoleon, and there was a job behind a GP20(?) moving towards Lafarge in Cecil. Even though there only appeared to be three crews working, that is still a lot of motive power and a lot of people on the clock. I would wager that Pioneer has someone counting beans though (seemingly unlike the MAW) so I am sure they are weighing cost and benefit on a daily basis. Pioneer seems to have their stuff together and they clearly have some sort of greater plan for the line. I am happy to see them committed to it.

[Y@]

FWIW, there is only one GP20 on ND&W property.

The ND&W roster consists of:

PREX GP9 #105 (Gettysburg)
PREX NW2 #107 (ex-BN)
PREX GP16 #1601
PREX GP16 #1603
PREX GP16 #1606
PREX GP20 #3054