Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Definitive Thread

[AARR]

There was an article in Trains Mag a year or two or three ago about what it costs to maintain a short line railroad. It included track maintenance, wages, overhead, engines, etc. etc. If I can find it I'll post the numbers so we have an idea ballpark costs ND&W must consider when deciding how many crews/engines it can operate.

[bumthum]

FWIW, there is only one GP20 on ND&W property.

The ND&W roster consists of:

PREX GP9 #105 (Gettysburg)
PREX NW2 #107 (ex-BN)
PREX GP16 #1601
PREX GP16 #1603
PREX GP16 #1606
PREX GP20 #3054

Ahhh yes, I didn't look up their roster before my post. I didn't realized they had 3 GP16's although, thinking back, I did realize they had the two I saw in Defiance because as I look at the pictures I took 1603 has "GP-16" right on the frame and they both had four small fans on the roof. The GP20 was working the derailment near Auglaize Village that day though, I checked the photos I took and it is clearly #3054. Thanks for the clarification on the roster.

[Bulby]

I'm not sure what the going rate for an SW is but I would bet GP20s are more readily available at competitive prices.

Pioneer doesn't need any more of those dang GP20s. If it was up to me, they would all be either stripped to the frame and rebuilt as something else or simply scrapped outright, with a few exceptions, (PREX 2003 and 3054) they are almost entirely garbage.

Typically, they don't utilize a "crew" per locomotive in service. The crew travels to and from work as needed... locomotives are staged throughout the line to be used when and where they are needed.

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

I would wager that Pioneer has someone counting beans though (seemingly unlike the MAW) so I am sure they are weighing cost and benefit on a daily basis.

More like an hourly basis, Pioneer has too many people that count beans and know absolutely nothing about a railroad.

I was bored today, and did some figuring in regards to that whole needing 7 engines on the MAW. At Avon, we operate 363 days a year, around the clock, with no stoppages. We have 3 puller jobs, 2 hump jobs, and 1 van job that all require power sets. So, we have a 'need' for 6 engine sets on any given day. Because it is RCO, we're obviously tied into engines that are thus equipped. Assigned to Avon is the 2440, 2441, 2442, 8249, 8480 (usually M.U.'d to 8487 for a 'big' hump set), 8477 , 8466, 8816, 1313, and 1312. When everything is 'here', the 1313 and 1312 are usually paired up with the 8477 and 8466. However, because of mechanical failures, and boo-boos, the 1312 is M.U.'d to a leased 4 axle to give us a backup set. 8466 is off getting worked at Huntington or Cumberland. 1313 is out due to wreck damage. We just received the 2440 back from one of those heavy repair shops for repairs. 8618 has been at Huntington for well over 6 months getting a rebuild after a blown turbo. So, right now, we have 7 'sets' assigned to us. 6 jobs to be covered by 7 sets of power (available in service at any given time) at an operation that runs 24x7 almost 365 days a year.

One key difference is if one of your engines has a problem, you have Huntington or Cumberland to send it to for repairs, the NDW's shop is the great outdoors. (and the majority of the mechanical work is done by guys who travel from western Illinois "as needed") Plus, if one of your engines breaks, you can get one sent to you in short order. Not so for Pioneer; look at how long it took for the first locomotives to show up on the Defiance section when the line was acquired. Pioneer can NOT simply "dial for diesels" like a CSX yard.

So, no way the NDW needs 7 engines assigned to it. The LIRC is probably double, to triple in length, and handles probably 10 times the car loads as the NDW gets by with only 11 engines on the property. When Potash off the INRD was running, they were running 8000 to 10,000 ton trains, and would need that much power. Unless the NDW starts running similar tonnages (provided they don't have problems with the track first) I don't see how you could justify needing 7 engines on that property. Even with mechanical failures and/or inspections.

Even if the NDW needed double header sets to start moving cars, you could run that railroad with 3, 4, or 5 engines, just like they are doing now. Averaging 8 car loads moved a day certainly doesn't warrant double headed consists. The money would be better invested getting the track up to a sustainable 10 or 15 mph so that running the entire length of the line, working customers, and back would be easily accomplished in 12 hrs. Even then, it may not be operational feasible to do that, so you would still need a pair of jobs on the line.

My counter point here is that tonnage does not dictate the ND&W's train length. The powers that be realize that a 6 car train is a lot less likely to derail then a 18 car train. (something the MAW never figured out) But, now you have tripled the number of trains. However the cost of more trains is made up by not having to rerail equipment, and turning equipment faster (less car hire costs).

For giggles, lets break down the numbers. I'm going to assume Pioneer probably pays their guys somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 to $15 an hour. Lets just say they make $150 a day for working 12 hrs. If that is on the low side, then these numbers will look worse. It is entirely likely Pioneer pays less.

I won't say how badly you are off, but you are definitely low on pay. (Pioneer isn't union, but it isn't exactly minimum wage) I will say that engineers make more per hour than the conductors, but if you are with Pioneer for awhile, you will end up cross-trained. "Standard" Pioneer work week for crews is 50 hours.

We'll assume they 'own' the locomotives, and aren't on some daily lease payment, so engine cost is $0 (not really, but for the sake of this scenario we'll assume it is).

Yes, Pioneer owns all of its many rent-a-wrecks. (Anybody want to lease a Pioneer loco?) Engines are officially (for financial reasons) owned by Pioneer Railcorp subsidiary Pioneer Rail Equipment and leased to the individual shortlines (on paper anyway).

I would guess they burn somewhere between 100 to 200 gallons of fuel a 'day'. I know our puller sets burn about 200 to 250 gallons a shift (we can get 5 days between fueling on our SD40-2s) but they're probably working a lot harder, so we'll assume 100 gallons a day for the NDW.

If the engineers are being judicious with the throttle, run 2 is about all you need (and then not often).

Some of this is variable because I would bet Pioneer has the guys doing track work on the days they're not running the engines and moving cars.

Yep!

I believe I read that Pioneer is using people of the MSO operation to 'fill in' at the NDW....

Pioneer likes sending employees from one operation to others as-needed. It saves hiring more people, and it gives those already on the payroll more work (which translates to more pay)

Averaging 8 cars a day (2000 car figure), you're looking at needing earning $125 a car (and up for profits) to cover your costs.

Even if I had the switch fee numbers on hand, I couldn't publish them. I'll leave it at the cars make money.

cost for track materials to bring the ROW up to snuff (its $75 to $100 per tie to buy new ones)

Where are you buying new ties at $75 a pop? I don't think I've seen ties costing that much.

I would imagine that Pioneer sees the numbers the same way, and hence why you don't have 7 engines on that property.

More accurately, the reason there is not a 7th engine on the NDW is there is not an interchangeable locomotive that can be spared elsewhere. Plus, even if there were an engine available, with the current states of NS and CSX, Pioneer isn't going to hand an operable locomotive to either railroad and pay to have it shipped to another railroad.

Something for everyone to remember is that the ND&W doesn't work 24/7.

[jrgerber]

When I lived in Napoleon south on off Glenwood I could watch the Wabash-N&W from my second story window, from 1964-1969 I can recall about 4 trains a day, most of them pulled by Wabash F units.

I believe Pioneer purchased the majority of BNSF's GP-20 fleet, as I recall the prices then were about $67,000-$80,000 per unit for 2,000 HP, you be paying a lot more to purchase a GP38 or GP-38 today. As time goes go on there will be less GP9, GP-10s, etc. Its already hard to find GP-7s or GP-8s. I guess you could go the GE four axle route but they don't seem to be very popular.

[Bulby]

As time goes go on there will be less GP9, GP-10s, etc. Its already hard to find GP-7s or GP-8s.

Unfortunately, no one makes engines like GP7s or GP9s or GP38s any more. Most railroads that have them won't get rid of them because not much on the used locomotive market is comparable in ease to maintain and operate.

I guess you could go the GE four axle route but they don't seem to be very popular.

G.E. builds cheap throw-aways with a good warranty. EMD built to last for ages.

[bumthum]

Unfortunately, no one makes engines like GP7s or GP9s or GP38s any more. Most railroads that have them won't get rid of them because not much on the used locomotive market is comparable in ease to maintain and operate.

Ain't that the truth. That's why Class I's and larger Class II's are rebuilding their GP38's and GP40's and smaller Class II's, regionals, and short lines, are storing them on dead lines in hopes of repairing them when they break. It's pretty telling when a railroad will readily chop up a GP35, 4-axle GE, or even newer EMD and GE product, but keep GP38's and GP40's sitting around in any condition for years. Roads won't give them up and everyone seems to be in the market for them. At this point the few GP7's and GP9's floating around in revenue service are becoming difficult and increasingly expensive to maintain given their horsepower ratings.

[MSchwiebert]

http://utahrails.net/loconotes/pcook-emd-567.php

A good read regarding the "supportability" of the various 567 engine variants. Its understandable why older 567's are fading into the history books.

[MagnumForce]

The NDW crews are not working 12 hour days. Usually start around 7 and tie up by 4 or 5. Can't recall them ever working much later than that and never in the dark so in the winter that get's cut even more.

For the things they do I don't believe that 6 units is excessive especially when one of them is a 75 year old switcher without MU.

[jrgerber]

I believe the idea about mating a 645 power assembly to the 567 engine was to get rid of need for turbocharger. I could be wrong.

[bumthum]

The turbo chargers are what I could see making a GP20 more of a burden to a short line. I'm pretty sure most do end up disabling the turbo charger in locomotives so equipped, does Pioneer disable the turbos in their locomotives?

[Bulby]

The turbo chargers are what I could see making a GP20 more of a burden to a short line. I'm pretty sure most do end up disabling the turbo charger in locomotives so equipped, does Pioneer disable the turbos in their locomotives?

You don't disable a turbocharger, you have to replace it with twin roots blowers. (which, from a reliability standpoint, is an excellent idea)

I believe the idea about mating a 645 power assembly to the 567 engine was to get rid of need for turbocharger. I could be wrong

Originally, that was the intent, getting rid of the turbos on 567D2, 567D3, and 567D3A. Mr. Cook advocates using 645 power assemblies to keep adequate parts availability.

http://utahrails.net/loconotes/pcook-emd-567.php

A good read regarding the "supportability" of the various 567 engine variants. Its understandable why older 567's are fading into the history books.

I think in the near future, anything that isn't at least a 567C block, will be museum pieces or scrapped, with the exception of those upgraded to 567AC or BC. Something to remember is that that was written over 8 years ago, any parts shortages listed have only gotten worse.

Unfortunately, no one makes engines like GP7s or GP9s or GP38s any more. Most railroads that have them won't get rid of them because not much on the used locomotive market is comparable in ease to maintain and operate.

Ain't that the truth. That's why Class I's and larger Class II's are rebuilding their GP38's and GP40's and smaller Class II's, regionals, and short lines, are storing them on dead lines in hopes of repairing them when they break. It's pretty telling when a railroad will readily chop up a GP35, 4-axle GE, or even newer EMD and GE product, but keep GP38's and GP40's sitting around in any condition for years. Roads won't give them up and everyone seems to be in the market for them.

Amen!

At this point the few GP7's and GP9's floating around in revenue service are becoming difficult and increasingly expensive to maintain given their horsepower ratings.

The GP7 has the 567B block, so, in shortline service, it can be a pain. However, it is still a good block, and can be updated to 567BC. In the next few years, if a comparable locomotive is avilable to the current owners, the majority of the GP7s still in use will be retired (especially those with B blocks) GP9s will be around for awhile, with a 567C block. Still ,it comes down to locating a workable replacement. In the right application, GP7s and GP9s have the perfect horsepower for the job.

[Saturnalia]

How come EMD doesn't produce more parts for the aging Geep and SD fleets?

[Bulby]

How come EMD doesn't produce more parts for the aging Geep and SD fleets?

Why doesn't Microsoft support Windows XP?

The more serious answer is that many of the jigs, patterns, and in some cases the drawings have been lost or destroyed, many years ago. EMD and its aftermarket suppliers will provide what parts they have on shelf in the proverbial backroom, but once those are gone, it isn't necessarily practical to tool up to produce a (relatively) small run of parts.

In addition, if EMD still produced certain parts, they might not get as many orders for new locomotives.

For the most part, 567C and D blocks, and most of the reliable variants of the 645 still have parts available.

I don't personally like that EMD doesn't have the ability or desire to produce new parts for the 567C, but I can't do much about it. Unless you can find someone capable of casting the parts to the level of quality control needed, you just have to live with it. I hear at least one foundry is looking at casting new cylinder liners for ALCO 244s, so it is possible.

[bumthum]

bumthum wrote:The turbo chargers are what I could see making a GP20 more of a burden to a short line. I'm pretty sure most do end up disabling the turbo charger in locomotives so equipped, does Pioneer disable the turbos in their locomotives?

You don't disable a turbocharger, you have to replace it with twin roots blowers. (which, from a reliability standpoint, is an excellent idea)

Whoops, I was off on the terminology. I was thinking of dynamic brakes which, of course, is completely different. Has Pioneer replaced their turbos with roots blowers?

I don't personally like that EMD doesn't have the ability or desire to produce new parts for the 567C, but I can't do much about it. Unless you can find someone capable of casting the parts to the level of quality control needed, you just have to live with it. I hear at least one foundry is looking at casting new cylinder liners for ALCO 244s, so it is possible.

For the purposes of their own product support I can't see why EMD would support such old blocks. I consider Ford to be pretty good in terms of parts support and I can't get certain parts for my 1998 Contour without having them custom made - it's still a great car by the way. I would bet that EMD would prefer all of these short lines convert over to something like the GP15 or upgrade to some of the newer rebuild products available. Of course the money isn't there for that but eventually all of these nice old locomotives will have to be retired (even the 38s and 40s) and that might lead to a market for new 4-axle units and more money for EMD. I don't know if it's feasible but could something like a GP20,GP30,GP35 be rebuilt with a complete roots equipped 645 engine, instead of fussing with the older 567 issues?

On a side note, I think the number of 567 equipped locomotives remaining in revenue service is testament to the quality of the original product. The fact that short lines and tourist operations are able to maintain them and keep them viable, at least in the near future, is pretty amazing.

[12Bridge]

Hatch & Kirk is now the OEM for EMD 567 line parts. The last time I ordered from them they were still offering all the parts for a BC conversion as well..

Its not about finding the parts, they are out there. Its the cost of said parts... which is why so many shortlines keep dead engine around, even just for core value on things like heads and liners.

Dont forget, there are just as many of these engines in the Marine world. The same goes for Alco and FM, who have pretty much taken over the standby generator markets.

[MSchwiebert]

Agreed, Especially for parts that require hard tooling. A point is reached where it no longer makes financial sense to tie up $ by refurbishing/replacing the tooling necessary to make the parts. Or the tooling cost is spread out over shorter runs - and the end customers gripe about how expensive the parts have become.

A good example of the latter was Detroit Diesel's pledge to continue to support the 2 cycle (53 & 71 series) engine lines. Part of this was out of necessity due to the largest end customer for the last 30 years or so being the US Military (and they have a cradle to grave policy) - and Uncle Sam doesn't really care how much parts cost, but for the average user that still had a piece of equipment that had a 2 cycle Detroit - OE Service parts got priced out of sight.

I look for this situation to get worse in the coming years as CAT continues to integrate EMD into their corporation. Cat's policy on the equipment side is more in line with what GE does with their locomotives than what EMD did prior. (CAT is doing the same with the Perkins Engine line, which they acquired 10-15 years ago and has rapidly expanded the status of NLA on older engine parts there)

How come EMD doesn't produce more parts for the aging Geep and SD fleets?

Why doesn't Microsoft support Windows XP?

The more serious answer is that many of the jigs, patterns, and in some cases the drawings have been lost or destroyed, many years ago. EMD and its aftermarket suppliers will provide what parts they have on shelf in the proverbial backroom, but once those are gone, it isn't necessarily practical to tool up to produce a (relatively) small run of parts.

In addition, if EMD still produced certain parts, they might not get as many orders for new locomotives.

For the most part, 567C and D blocks, and most of the reliable variants of the 645 still have parts available.

I don't personally like that EMD doesn't have the ability or desire to produce new parts for the 567C, but I can't do much about it. Unless you can find someone capable of casting the parts to the level of quality control needed, you just have to live with it. I hear at least one foundry is looking at casting new cylinder liners for ALCO 244s, so it is possible.

[wagnew0923]

Hello. What is currently running through Napoleon now and when is the best time to catch a train. I went through there on Friday and the track looked terrible, almost abandoned. Also who currently goes through Bowling Green and when.

Thanks

[MagnumForce]

They run to the East side of Napoleon daily, but nothing east of there. Where did you look?

CSX runs through BG around 6 trains a day at various times that I can think of off hand.

[bumthum]

Hello. What is currently running through Napoleon now and when is the best time to catch a train. I went through there on Friday and the track looked terrible, almost abandoned.

Yup, the track is pretty rough along the whole line... even after a lot of work. They seem to get started in Defiance around 0800 (which is similar to the former MAW), they will switch around there for a while and will depart east to Napoleon at some point later. I think it is hard to tell when they will leave Defiance but it is a simple matter of hanging out while they switch and then "chasing" them east. The varied needs in Defiance dictate when and if they will head east so there is no good way to predict where they will be at what time. I have found the best bet is to start in Defiance and then go to Napoleon if you don't see any activity there by around 0830. Sometimes they even start with a train on the east end in Napoleon and head back west, depending on work and what they are switching.

They also work the west end from Woodburn, IN to Cecil, OH and further east - I guess they run the full length of their trackage now, so Woodburn to Napoleon via Defiance is always possible. It's tough to keep track since Pioneer took over, they have stuff going on everywhere along the line on a regular basis now, it's almost like a proper railroad.

I'm originally from New England so the ND&W is a great deal more like the railroads I grew up with than a Class I would be (B&M was the last small "Class I" in my area as a child and it was barely holding on in those days). I find the line fascinating, you should take a day to "railfan" the ND&W, you might become addicted.

[wagnew0923]

I take it the traffic is typical short line stuff, with 30 car consist's moving slow and switching out locals. Does the line make it all the way to Toledo?

I also drove through a small town called Rudolph, I was wondering about the line that went through there. What was the name of the Railroad, when did it shut down, any pictures...etc

Thanks for all the information, I really appreciate it.