38/39J

[Saturnalia]

When were these canceled?

[SD80MAC]

When Grand Elk took over Elkhart-Grand Rapids, AFAIK.

[Ypsi]

EDIT: After some talking it out, and resereach and remembering we think we have it figured out, ns8401 will fill it in at his leisure

But early 2008 is about right for it ending we believe.. There were quite a few different random symbols at that time

[ns8401]

Alex, it was in 09-10. I have video of 38J from 2009

On this day 38J had a monster train and lost an air hose, stopping right at Superior Road, talked to the nice crew for a bit and it was one of the monster 38J's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtzyeY4ZsQs

And here in 2010 is B34 pulling away from me after stopping with a sticky break in a car towards the rear of the train. They went onto the 1 main at CP Ypsi. I filmed them going away, the highlight is the slack of the train which you can hear, but not much else is. I talked to the conductor and this was B34
-(Slack goes out at 1:20 in video, point is that its B34 not its a good video I didn't do very well at knowing or recording train symbols at that time, but that one I will know forever because of my conversation and how darn cold it was out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hur1Y_w91Hw

Dates are correct as I uploaded the first video day of, and the second video which I uploaded the day after

Like I said Alex, close to 2010

Ok, after consulting with Ypsi and the RRFan archives we've decided on this approximate timeline:
-38J ran Elkhart to Jackson To Wayne until about 2005
-38J then was "extended" (well not exactly) to run back to Jackson and terminate in 2005
-38J was abolished in late 2007 or early 2008 from Jackson to Wayne to Jackson, in favor of B34 which originated out of Wayne to Jackson and Back to Wayne.
-38J was reinstated in the spring of 2008 after the B34 plan didn't work out well.
-38J was abolished a second time in late 2008 or early 2009 after the recession dried up the remaining traffic, B34 became tri-weekly. Locals handle Jackson west as well ending through freight service on the Michigan line entirely.
-B34 was abolished in mid 2009 in favor of the 38E/39E pair running on it's current routing Elkhart-Toledo-Wayne-Jackson but tri-weekly.

Ypsi's "38J" is actually 38E which was tri-weekly into 2010.

[Saturnalia]

So through-freight was done in 2009...cool

Ypsi - I hope you didn't see this as a run-around...I just wanted clarity...and I think this timeline is pretty sweet.

Alas, it isn't your Grandpa's Michigan Line

[Ypsi]

So through-freight was done in 2009...cool

Ypsi - I hope you didn't see this as a run-around...I just wanted clarity...and I think this timeline is pretty sweet.

Alas, it isn't your Grandpa's Michigan Line

No I don't, I'm glad we got it mostly right the symbols were messy in this time period.. either or late 2000's (2009) was decently close

[JANGAJONGA]

I miss 38J/39J lol always had interesting power

[Y@]

I miss 38J/39J lol always had interesting power

You don't even like trains anymore.

[GP30M4216]

In the olden days, they used to be 48J/49J, but we won't get in to that

Both trains worked Kalamazoo, with 38J setting off and 39J picking up. 39J westbound would sometimes be a monster - 150+ cars all trying to get around the wye at BO and then up out of the Kzoo River valley.

The time line as proposed sounds correct. I moved from Kzoo to Ypsi in 2008 and at that point things were getting screwy on the NS. B34 came along and provided some good daylight action on the east end before being replaced by nighttime 38E and 39E going around the long way via Toledo.

[PriorrightsConrail]

March 1, 2009 was the date of the Grand Elk takeover of the west side of the state.

As for the 38/39Js vs 38/39Es, the Es were always a Detroit (Sterling) train. In 2002 NS started running the Es via the Michigan Line. That lasted about a year. I would have to consult some old pay stubs for a more exact timeline. In the fall of 2003 they "extended" the 38J to run past Jackson so as to supply Wayne with their necessary cars and to pick up their Elkharts and get them back to Jackson for that night's 39J to Elkhart. This "extended" 38J was not an extension of the 38/39J freight pool. It was a local that originally worked on call, depending on the arrival time of 38J from Elkhart. It was later given a normal start time with scheduled days off. It was usually a 6 day assignment with Saturday off, and an extra crew would be called on Saturday. So the job always ran 7 days per week. This local 38J went by many names/job symbols over the years, and the crew's on duty point even bounced back and forth between Jackson and Wayne a few times. NS always discovered that as an extension of the J trains, it always worked out best crewed out of Jackson. This local always did the Chelsea work (Jiffy and Four Mile) until it evolved into the extended 38/39E, at which point the B44 was given that task. And at no point was this Wayne-Jackson (or vice versa) EVER a 3 day train, or even an every other day train. The 38/39E turn has been crewed out of Wayne since late 2010.

I held the Jackson-Elkhart pool, and the Jackson-Wayne turn for long periods of time throughout my career, so trust me, this is far more accurate than your timeline. I only wish we still had the work.

[ns8401]

March 1, 2009 was the date of the Grand Elk takeover of the west side of the state.

As for the 38/39Js vs 38/39Es, the Es were always a Detroit (Sterling) train. In 2002 NS started running the Es via the Michigan Line. That lasted about a year. I would have to consult some old pay stubs for a more exact timeline. In the fall of 2003 they "extended" the 38J to run past Jackson so as to supply Wayne with their necessary cars and to pick up their Elkharts and get them back to Jackson for that night's 39J to Elkhart. This "extended" 38J was not an extension of the 38/39J freight pool. It was a local that originally worked on call, depending on the arrival time of 38J from Elkhart. It was later given a normal start time with scheduled days off. It was usually a 6 day assignment with Saturday off, and an extra crew would be called on Saturday. So the job always ran 7 days per week. This local 38J went by many names/job symbols over the years, and the crew's on duty point even bounced back and forth between Jackson and Wayne a few times. NS always discovered that as an extension of the J trains, it always worked out best crewed out of Jackson. This local always did the Chelsea work (Jiffy and Four Mile) until it evolved into the extended 38/39E, at which point the B44 was given that task. And at no point was this Wayne-Jackson (or vice versa) EVER a 3 day train, or even an every other day train. The 38/39E turn has been crewed out of Wayne since late 2010.

I held the Jackson-Elkhart pool, and the Jackson-Wayne turn for long periods of time throughout my career, so trust me, this is far more accurate than your timeline. I only wish we still had the work.

Thanks for filling in the blanks on that. It's nice to have right info, it beats our foggy memories. I wish you guys had the work still too, it's been a pretty sad decline, those trains out of sterling were usually huge, lotsa auto parts boxes and even some loaded autoracks a few times in 07 (I'm sure it happened more but I remember seeing a cut of 25 go west that summer on the local). At least Wayne to Jackson still has the one freight. Should we consider the 38/39E from Wayne to Jackson and return a road train or a local or ?

[Saturnalia]

Should we consider the 38/39E from Wayne to Jackson and return a road train or a local or ?

I myself consider it a road train...no local switching (that I know of?) makes that call easy.

[CSX_CO]

Should we consider the 38/39E from Wayne to Jackson and return a road train or a local or ?

I myself consider it a road train...no local switching (that I know of?) makes that call easy.

Now you're getting into how the work is categorized by the company and Union work rules. So, the train may have a 'road' symbol, but get paid under a different rate of pay. Sounds like NS classified it as a 'turn job' and probably paid it under a higher rate of pay then just a normal road freight. You're getting down to brass tacks, and unless you really want to get into brass tacks, it sounds like the information supplied covers what you're looking for anyway.

CSX has 'road trains', 'locals', and 'road switchers' which are different kinds of service, different pay grades, and different work rules. Doesn't have to do a bunch of 'switching' to be categorized as a 'road switcher'. Mileage changes, assignment limits change, etc. Most of that stuff goes well over and beyond what is necessarily needed for the 'historical record', and was tough enough to keep up with at the time the changes were implemented, let alone any distance in the past.

Practice Safe CSX

[ns8401]

Right, he said it was a local when it was symboled 38J / 39J from Wayne to Jackson. I assume the current 38E / 39E incarnation is a turn job since that's what he said, but I figured I'd double check since they had it as a local before that. This is getting somewhat complex and though it's not really needed for the historical record if you wanted to make a documentary in 40 years like say the Gulash films it might be a nice touch to have in there. I know that in many of those videos they have the information about what each train did, road train, Jackson Turn etc.

[PriorrightsConrail]

38/39E is a road train. Or in railroad terms, through freight, as opposed to traveling road switcher (local). This is for reasons that are tough to explain to those outside of the industry, but basically it has to do with interpretation and enforcement of the federal air brake and mechanical inspections rules/laws. By making it a through freight, it utilizes the same train symbol from point of origin (Jackson) to final destination (Elkhart). This allows the original train from Jackson to not require a new air test and inspection before the train departs Wayne. The only cars requiring said test/inspection are any cars added to the train in Wayne, or picked up en route. If it were ran as a B44 (or any other symbol) to Wayne, and then a through freight symbol to points beyond, it is technically a new train and requires a new air brake test, and mechanical inspection. Even if nothing in the consist has changed. Confused? Welcome to the wonderful world of railroad operating rules, and federal regulations, etc. The side of railroading that railfans rarely get to see.