New Grand Rapids Amtrak Station - Vern J Ehlers
- railohio
- Photographer of Wires in America by Rail of Ohio & Wisconsin
- Posts: 1789
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:44 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Contact:
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Name the defensive tackles for the Baltimore Colts in 1969.
"I shot the freight train / But I did not shoot the fantrip"
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
- Ben Higdon
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:02 pm
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Nice mapping skills! I spent untold classroom hours drawing track layouts. Mostly copying the style of Conrail ZTS charts though.MQT3001 wrote:
- Standard Railfan
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 1818
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:25 pm
- Location: Marquette, MI
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
I have been thinking about the layout of the track into the new Amtrak station. As has been pointed out, the access is a bit awkward. The seemingly logic choice would have been to run the track from the station across Century Ave. and tie onto the No. 1 main west of the station.Raildudes dad wrote:This whole station location is a mess, did I tell you that before
IIRC MDOT has taken a position of "No New Grade Crossings". If that is the case, the explanation for the station layout makes more sense. RDD, can you comment on the grade crossing policy?
-
- Roadmaster
- Posts: 4762
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:12 am
- Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
FRA's goal is to reduce the number of crossings. MDOT Rail Safety has adopted that philosophy and then added to install a new crossing, the jurisdiction must close another with less than 100 Average Daily Traffic. Having said that, I have designed and gotten approval to construct 3 new crossings without closing one. Having interacted somewhat with the project manager on this project, I doubt they even thought of asking. Furthermore, the spur, if it did cross Century, would see 2 - 5 car? trains a day at no more than a walking speed. Cross bucks would be sufficient for that crossing. I'm sure the PM would have designed full gates and flashersStandard Railfan wrote:I have been thinking about the layout of the track into the new Amtrak station. As has been pointed out, the access is a bit awkward. The seemingly logic choice would have been to run the track from the station across Century Ave. and tie onto the No. 1 main west of the station.Raildudes dad wrote:This whole station location is a mess, did I tell you that before
IIRC MDOT has taken a position of "No New Grade Crossings". If that is the case, the explanation for the station layout makes more sense. RDD, can you comment on the grade crossing policy?
Just one horrid waste of taxpayer funds, it might be tolerable if it had been a good design but.............
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
I'm curious to hear the opinions of the crews who have now used the station three full days. They seem to have departed quickly and flawlessly the two days I witnessed it. Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs? Take Grand Haven, for example. Talk about a reverse move! But anyway, aside from the way the train comes into the station (which I personally don't have an issue with), I think it's a great looking station and platform.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
- trnwatcher
- My name ain't Steven
- Posts: 4855
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 6:22 pm
- Location: Grandville MI
- Contact:
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
African or European?J T wrote:What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Steven F. Shick
http://www.youtube.com/user/trnwatcher
http://www.trnwatcher.net
I.T. guy/Railfan
"The true railfan has two favorite railroads....the Baltimore & Ohio and another one." - Charles S. Roberts
http://www.youtube.com/user/trnwatcher
http://www.trnwatcher.net
I.T. guy/Railfan
"The true railfan has two favorite railroads....the Baltimore & Ohio and another one." - Charles S. Roberts
- Ben Higdon
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:02 pm
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
I think the backup move you are referring to would be to the GTW depot in downtown Grand Haven. GTW trains would have pulled into and out of there on their way to/from the swing bridge without a backup move. The C&O depot was/is right on the C&O main track.J T wrote:I'm curious to hear the opinions of the crews who have now used the station three full days. They seem to have departed quickly and flawlessly the two days I witnessed it. Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs? Take Grand Haven, for example. Talk about a reverse move! But anyway, aside from the way the train comes into the station (which I personally don't have an issue with), I think it's a great looking station and platform.
Did the GTW ever have a station at the end of the spur that served the Grand Rapids Press, before the existing depot on their main track was built?
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:11 pm
- Location: Grand Rapids MI
- Contact:
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
The old GTW depot stood where the main post office stands today.
- Standard Railfan
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 1818
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:25 pm
- Location: Marquette, MI
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Many passenger depots used to and still do require reverse moves. Chicago Union Station is an example familiar to many of us.J T wrote:Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs?
-
- Roadmaster
- Posts: 4762
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:12 am
- Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
My point is this one didn't need a reverse move if they only faced the switch the other way.Standard Railfan wrote:Many passenger depots used to and still do require reverse moves. Chicago Union Station is an example familiar to many of us.J T wrote:Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs?
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
How did they get to and from the station without a back up move? The tracks ended near the station, no?Ben Higdon wrote:
I think the backup move you are referring to would be to the GTW depot in downtown Grand Haven. GTW trains would have pulled into and out of there on their way to/from the swing bridge without a backup move
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Where the new station is, that seems like it would have been a pretty sharp curve. Would there have been enough room with the placement of the platform or would they have had to build the station closer to the Wealthy overpass (eliminating the parking lot)?Raildudes dad wrote: My point is this one didn't need a reverse move if they only faced the switch the other way.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimthias/
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
GRHC - you know every night I can imagine he is in front of his computer screen sitting in his underwear swearing profusely and drinking Blatz beer combing the RailRoadFan website for grammatical errors.
- GR Ron
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:03 am
- Location: Grand Rapids (Rockford/Cedar Springs area)
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
The signal aspect for P370-30 to "back west" into the station at Pleasant St. was red over red over white. I have not seen that aspect up here before.
GR Ron
- SD80MAC
- Ingersoll's Mr. Michigan
- Posts: 10659
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:59 pm
- Location: Grand Rapids
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
That's a "restricting" aspect according to CSX's "Seaboard rules", which is becoming the system-wide standard. It is used a lot up here but mostly going into yards where railfans wouldn't necessarily be able to few the signals.GR Ron wrote:The signal aspect for P370-30 to "back west" into the station at Pleasant St. was red over red over white. I have not seen that aspect up here before.
"Remember, 4 mph is a couple, 5's a collision!"
http://flickriver.com/photos/conrail680 ... teresting/
http://flickriver.com/photos/conrail680 ... teresting/
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Red over lunar is a pretty common restricting indication - seen it on BNSF as well. The western roads like the lunar aspect (or flashing red) for a restricting indication, versus the red over yellow (NORAC and older rules) pattern often used in the East. Restricting is a permissive display to enter unsignaled or low-speed track, such as a dead-end spur there at GRR.
Maybe CSX is changing to align with their future western marriage partner? whomever that will end up to be. Sorry, couldn’t resist
Maybe CSX is changing to align with their future western marriage partner? whomever that will end up to be. Sorry, couldn’t resist
D.M. Mitzel
Div. 8-NCR-NMRA
Oxford, Mich.
Div. 8-NCR-NMRA
Oxford, Mich.
- Saturnalia
- Authority on Cat
- Posts: 15450
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
- Location: Michigan City, IN
- Contact:
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me
- Schteinkuh
- Railcam Terrorizer
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:06 pm
- Location: LansingRailFan’s Mom’s House
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Some railroads use red over flashing red too.MQT3001 wrote:I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me
According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don't care what humans think is impossible.
- GR Ron
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:03 am
- Location: Grand Rapids (Rockford/Cedar Springs area)
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Dang here comes more southern influence first gray now lunar. (At least gray is disappearing, for now) I would think that lunar would blend in with background street lighting etc. Maybe my old eyes.... But then the amber street lighting..... Can't win. Change keeps it interesting but....... Miss the good old days too.That's a "restricting" aspect according to CSX's "Seaboard rules",
At least there are signals to be seen, new ones at that. Vs. gone.....
OK enough selfish rambling
GR Ron
Re: New Grand Rapids AMTK Station Construction Finally Under
Back when crews from one railroad, running over the rails of another railroad, wasn't as prolific as it is now, it wouldn't have been a big deal. C&O railroaders will argue the C&O had the best signal system, and you'll hear similar arguments from each individual railroad. So, having different aspects and indications wasn't a big deal when a crew may never have to run on another railroads signal system. Usually the color light signals are just a carry over from the semaphore signals they replaced, in a lot of cases aspect for aspect, to eliminate the need for engineers to relearn the entire signal system.MQT3001 wrote:I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me
Considering how many were color blind (they were able to get by looking at the position of the semaphore blades) a lot of them went off the position of where the light was illuminated in the head, and thus the strict adherence to which light is which color on signal heads. PRR knew of this problem, and that is why the chose amber yellow for their signals. It was the least likely for someone to be 'yellow' colorblind, and the position of the lights mimicked their semaphore signal indications so those colorblind engineers wouldn't be at risk of losing their jobs, or causing accidents.
All that being said, I share you sentiments on lunar, but there is one (sometimes big) problem. It is one that has plagued "lunar" signals from the start. How to get a true 'lunar' color. Incandescent bulbs give off 'yellow' light, so there had to be a lens in there to make it really 'lunar' instead of an 'yellowish white'. For the glass makers in the 1910's and 1920's when the color light signals started into vogue, the colors were hard to make consistently, 'lunar' especially. Too much 'blue' and it looks like a blue signal, which means something entirely different. Not enough color, and when you mix in the 'yellow' light given off from the bulbs, you get a green looking color, which again, is very bad. Those problems continue today. I remember signals on the Garrett and Willard subs that the 'lunar' looked really blue, and sometimes had a 'greenish' tint to it. We referred to those as "Buffalo Clears" in reference to a Buffalo crew mistaking the 'lunar' restricting for a medium clear (because of the slight greenish tint) shortly after split date.
So, yes, lunar is a good 'restricting' signal, but only if the people making the lenses can consistently get a 'lunar' color. With 'white' LEDs possible, it is probably easier than ever to do a 'lunar' but most of the Class I's are hesitant to adopt LED wayside signals because of the problems inherent in them. Mostly, because of how efficient they are, they don't give off heat. Great for efficiency, but that heat given off by that lamp also melts snow and ice off the lenses. With the 'cool' LEDs, you have to call a maintainer to remove that ice and snow buildup that a regular bulb would be able to 'melt' off.
Practice Safe CSX