Michigans busiest rail line?

[JANGAJONGA]

Wow! romulus sounds really great i am going to try to get out there soon! what do you guys think would be the shortline with the most moves per day. and is it the LS&I or CN that moves more freight in the u.p?

[AARR]

Shortline with most moves in lower MI is around Saginaw, I think .

When GER gets up and running Kalamazoo will probably be a good place to see shortline operations.

[gridejq]

A few things...Delray figures are way off-study or no study...they must have been counting how many horns they heard....

Delray used to see about 60-70 moves a day at its prime and this number is now around 40-50 on most days as of 09.

Chris is right regarding CSX and NS and traffic..........only difference is that eastbounds into Oakwood will sometimes be off "schedule" due to various delays on the way to Oakwood. CP call times are "scheduled" and are usually not far from the scheduled time...CSX is clock work out of GR-Flint-Detroit-Stanley except when they dont have rested crews and so forth...yeah this happens every week maybe once or twice but rarely at all anymore is a train really pushed far from its schedule...same with NS...171 and 181 always have same call times and 252 inbound is usually in the am within a hr or 2 of its schedule...and so on

As for traffic being slower in Mon-middle of the week...Romulus has no traffic that goes by this rule of thumb as all the trains run as scheduled....except maybe on a Monday when Q334 will be annulled due to no interchange traffic and so forth...the Monday-middle of week rule usually takes place with intermodal traffic as the way things depart on the east coast and end up on the west and vice versa...same thing with UP/BNSF coal out of the PRB...certain mines dont load on Sunday so you get less traffic on Monday-Tuesday....CSX is ALWAYS busiest through Romulus at night and so is the NS/CP.....all this is because of the schedules.........Fri and Saturday are usually pretty good to get a unit train for sure because of loadings and so forth.......grain/coal and all units trains dont have schedules per say but some have loading cycles so with that being said almost all CP and NS trains on the Wabash are scheduled as weel as every non unit train on the CSX.........

Busiest place in MI is currently Delray on most days with Romulus right behind...with TDSI New Boston back to almost full swing and loading 7 days a week? (at least 6)...Q287 is back daily and Q289 is 4-5 days at least and throw in a Q272 3-4 days a week and this should become 6 when Ford Louisville fully comes back on line....as far as southbound racks...Q231 is huge every night now with several S231 and also a few other extras including a X150 as a turn from Walbridge to New Boston to p/u 92 loads for Collinwood (Ex-Q290)....the rumor of bringing back Q290 is still in the pot and Q216 has been originating in Walbridge about 2-3 times a week for Philly.....so traffic is actually up on the CSX somewhat compared to 3 or 4 months ago....

[Railnut]

CN Chicago-Toronto main busy west of Durand..east of Flint only sees 10-20 on a good day..MtC sub is about the same anymore.
Port Huron is a nice place to sit and watch (16th St Amtrak Station)..all trains too and from Canada on the GTW comes through Port Huron..Port Huron can see 30-50 on a good day..including the CSX moves on the old PH&D..
Port Huron is best in the morning..the afternoon (12-5) is dead..after 5..it picks up a little..then goes nuts after dark...

Delray can be hit and miss..but when the trains are running..it makes the hassle getting there worth while.

I have sit in Milan for an entire day..durring the daylight I count 3 trains..after dark (the 2 hours I stayed after dark)..4...Milan sucks durring the day.....
Despite the "lack of trains" at Durand....I will take Durand over any other locals (other than Port Huron ) in Michigan because the atmosphere is "pro-railfan".
Dave C

[geeps]

I'm sorry, but that's not true. Every train has a call time where the train is "on duty", but physically leaves late. The reason you'll see a train that is running at a later time than usual is because the fact the train had issues with connections or finding a rested crew. Example is how Q335's call time is in the middle of the night, but is very possible on certain days to run late afteroon due to the train had issues with getting a the crew at the Toledo terminal. That's also why you saw CP 23T that Tuesday with Mike in the mid-afternoon insted of the morning. 23T was "on duty" at it's normal call time in the early morning, but CP had issues in Windsor, getting a rested crew at Oakwood, and clearing US Customs. So it's not at anytime; they have a call time for it, but depends when they get a crew and extras don't count.

No, thats just crew calling, it has nothing to do with a set time. Trains do not run on schedules, they all run as needed. You dont run a train if theres nothing to ship on it, its a waist of money. there is no "ON DUTY" time, they call a crew when a train is ready to go and it can be at any time and any place. NOW trains may seem to run in patterns but no train is written down to run at any given time.

[Racer]

No, thats just crew calling, it has nothing to do with a set time. Trains do not run on schedules, they all run as needed. You dont run a train if theres nothing to ship on it, its a waist of money. there is no "ON DUTY" time, they call a crew when a train is ready to go and it can be at any time and any place. NOW trains may seem to run in patterns but no train is written down to run at any given time.

I understand where your getting with this, but NS and BNSF run on a scheduel, they can run 5 cars or 50 cars on their trains, but they still have to run at a certain time, but they do have a scheduel because they run high-priority trains. If railroads ran trains whenever they did, there would be no purpose for "Z" trains. How can a shipping company run as needed? I'm not trying to prove you wrong here or make you feel bad, but lets say for example if you had a package being shipped and you paid to have the package delivered to your door within 2 days, would they wait to run the delivery truck until it is full? - which could be many days, therefore your package would come a week later than you paid for and you would probably think they are a bad service. That's where the company would follow a shipping scheduel so that everything gets delivered on time. If that's how NS and BNSF shipped their cargo, they would loose all that intermodal business, but CSX and UP are another story due to cut-backs from the recession, but they seem to do a decent job on delivery times. Now let's drop this and get back to the main point of this thread.

[GTWTD3]

Both of you are partly correct, at least with reference to NS. There are two different types of trains, those that originate that the terminal (or crew change location) you are near, and those that relay (IE may make a brief stop but do not originate or terminate). This is strictly freight train talk.

For trains that originate at a yard they have a set time that the train is supposed to be built, a set time when it is supposed to be inspected, a set time when the crew is supposed to be on duty, and a set time when the train is supposed to leave the terminal. When trains are not able to meet the above criteria, management wants answers. But trains do not always run at their scheduled time. If their are not enough cars, the trian may be annulled, or more likely combined with another train. Or their may not be power availabe, so the on duty time for the crew is pushed back until power is available. Sometimes due to crew issues, there is not a rested crew to take the train when it is scheduled to leave. This can be due to several reasons: high volume of extra trains used the available crews in that pool, inbound trains late arriving (if it is an away from home terminal for the crew), or excessive mark offs at the terminal. So while the freight trains are "scheduled" and most days will see the same train leaving the yard within the same hour, things can happen.

Now on to relay trains. THere are three types here: scheduled intermodal service, scheduled freight service, and non scheduled freight service (this includes everything from unit trains to extra sections of freight trains). -A note, while NS is trying to run everything under the scheduled train concept, which includes some unit trains, I am throwing them into this category.

Intermodal trains are broken down into two subcategories- premium intermodal, and non premium intermodal. Premium intermodal are those trains that carry UPS traffic. Delay them without justifiable cause, and you're sure to hear from someone in management. These trains for the most part have a crew on duty at the same time every day without exception, even at the relay points. As for non-premium intermodal, while they tend to run in the same window, they are not guaranteed to run every day, or even at the same time. Perfect example is 20G on NS, one never really knows when that train will show up. For the most part, intermodal trains will almost never have motive power assignment issues, it usually is enroute delays or crew issues.

Scheduled freight trains are scheduled to depart a terminal, but if the train relays it can show up at anytime, and the crew is ordered thusly. Generally there is a lot of padding on freight train schedules, so they tend to run earlier than the schedule allows. And then there are the unit trains. One never knows when they will show up, what delays they will have, what power will be available. They are the true crap shoot.

Chris you are confusing three different types of train service. Premium UPS business is next to Amtrak in priority. Schedule matters on those trains, no matter what. As for the rest of the trains, they still have schedules, but they are not as set in stone as you may like to think they are. Read trains magazines over the years, talk to shippers, and you'll find out that the time it takes a product to get to the shipper isn't nearly as important as the schedule. Look at how schedules are built. They have tight schedules at the beginning, looser in the middle, and really loose at the end. That allows for problems to happen. It is why you can count on seeing Q321 at almost the same time every day, but why Q272 is a crap shoot when it shows up. Geeps you are incorrect in your interpretation of how railroads are calling trains anymore. Almost all railroads are going to a scheduled train concept. It gives the system more fluidity. While there are daily fluctuations in what trains are run, for the most part the scheduled freight and intermodal trains are run daily at the same time. If they weren't, the system would be a mess. Think about something as basic as crewing a train. Most crews run in a pool, which requires them to have a home terminal and an away from home terminal. If the trains weren't scheduled, there would be no way to adequately staff the away frmo home terminal to cover trains at that station. With a scheduled railroad, you know that Train A gets called at 3pm, and Train B gets called at 7pm with some fluctuation. When extra trains are thrown in,it can really mess things up. But for the most part extra trains usually are known about with degree of advance notice. I can guarantee you that at NS if a freight train that is supposed to depart Conway yard at 3pm doesn't depart until 4pm, top management on the division/region/national hear about it, and want to know why the train was run incorrectly.

[C&O Dispatcher]

I know this is 2009, but when I used to have to work the Asst. Chief Dispatcher jobs in Saginaw back in the 70's and 80's, we were responsible for all the trains out of Saginaw. Each manifest and local did have a scheduled call time, but it all had to be cooridinated with the yard, the roundhouse and the crew caller. You had to check with the yardmaster to make sure the train would be ready, coordinate the power with the roundhouse and then give the crew caller at least 2 hours notice to have the crew on duty. Usually the yard wasn't a problem, but sometimes call times had to be "set back" for lack of power or crews. Extras for grain, coal, etc were run based on power and crew availability. Some trains were hotter than others; DIXIE and 396 that ran Saginaw to Toledo were two of the hotter trains and were almost always called for 2030 and 2230 hrs respectively. We had to notify headquarters in Southfield and Baltimore if any of the regular manifests had to be set back. If for some reason trains were consolidated, you might have to add extra engines to the consist so as not to short Walbridge or some other terminal on power. Everything was always in a state of flux. If you were counting on the power off at northbound to run a southbound and the northbound died at Birch Run, you better have planned ahead for a relief crew to get the train into Saginaw!
No crews rested to go get it? Oh, Oh!!!! It was also normally accepted that a train should depart within 1 hour after it's call time, otherwise you had to explain the delay to the Movement Office. We usually tried to get by with "train and air"; sometimes that worked, but not always. Most people on the outside don't realize how complicated it can all be when you consider crew districts, arbitraries, etc and how things like broken rails, derailments, engine failures and the like can throw everything into a form of controlled chaos!!

[JANGAJONGA]

Do you think NS will ever run through trains on the michigan line?

[MSchwiebert]

Once the shortline takes over the Elkhart-Grand Rapids line, there will be effectively no place to run a 'through' freight to/from.

[Racer]

Wkuhl, thanks for the clarification. It's fun to learn new things.

[geeps]

Geeps you are incorrect in your interpretation of how railroads are calling trains anymore. Almost all railroads are going to a scheduled train concept. It gives the system more fluidity. While there are daily fluctuations in what trains are run, for the most part the scheduled freight and intermodal trains are run daily at the same time. If they weren't, the system would be a mess. Think about something as basic as crewing a train. Most crews run in a pool, which requires them to have a home terminal and an away from home terminal. If the trains weren't scheduled, there would be no way to adequately staff the away frmo home terminal to cover trains at that station. With a scheduled railroad, you know that Train A gets called at 3pm, and Train B gets called at 7pm with some fluctuation. When extra trains are thrown in,it can really mess things up. But for the most part extra trains usually are known about with degree of advance notice. I can guarantee you that at NS if a freight train that is supposed to depart Conway yard at 3pm doesn't depart until 4pm, top management on the division/region/national hear about it, and want to know why the train was run incorrectly.

I knew they used to do it like that. Back in the day, Union Pacific came up here trying to figure out why the Wabash was getting their trains out on time. The Wabash's concept was when that train is set to leave it leaves, no waiting for extra cars.
At the same time, for the reasons you just stated, that's why they don't run on schedules, because one train can throw off the whole system.
But your mistaking "getting called" for train schedule. A crew is called when a train is needed. If the train isn't needed it doesn't run. Its a waist of operating costs. It may appear to be on a schedule but that's because the traffic flow is always moving. Now the flow goes back to the customers, the customers build and get their freight shipped, normally around the same time, then the local picks it up, it goes to the yard, and then a crew can be called. If something happens to the local en route or at customer's door, they are NOT gonna call a crew at the same time to pick up a freight. Then you would have a train crew being paid to sit around, and a local crew getting paid over time. It is too expensive to run that day every day 365 a year.

[gridejq]

Geeps I was wondering what railroad you worked for? Or even better what desk you dispatched on the NS? Wayne maybe you should start going by what Geeps says when it comes to "schedules" and crews...and while were at it...I think he should be in marketing for NS...ahhh its good to see that the ones that "TRY" and know it all and knock others are the ones that should be listening and not talking

[GTWTD3]

Geeps you are incorrect. I am talking about this from experience, as I am an assistant chief for Norfolk Southern. Since you want to try to "school" me on how I do my job, I think I will school you on how Norfolk Southern actually works. I know some on here like to use the line "I work for the railroad believe me". Please don't take it that way, but I have told you numerous times I work for NS and thus have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about when it comes to this stuff (a side note, you seem to pretend to know it all when talking to Chris and others, but in reality you aren't correct, try and use some tact when having a discussion). When it comes to operations, I am pretty fluent in what I talk about. Other stuff, such as motive power, not so much. Freight trains do run on schedules. Daily schedules, 15V is ordered the same time every day, same as any freight train that is scheduled by the scheduling department (IE any freight train except for an extra section). If the train is not ordered at the time it is supposed to be, there are lots of people asking questions. If you read my earlier message, you would see how I explained the scheduled concept, please read it again. Trains run daily, unless they aren't scheduled to run daily. No iffs ands or buts. If a train is not to run today, it is not just a simple "hey lets not run the train." There may be only 20 cars at Conway for train A, but it picks up 50 cars at Cleveland Rockport. There is a person who is in charge of positioning motive power for the Northern region of NS, so it has positioned power at Conway for that train to run. Now if the company annuls that train, Rockport is now plugged with 50 cars for todays train plus whatever else is there for tomorrow's train. So now you have to find power at Rockport to run the train to Elkhart, but there is not power just sitting around waiting to put on a train. So the cars sit and wait for power to be available. Now the train is ready to be called 5 hours later when the power is found, most likely stolen off another train or from the yard itself which leaves them short. Now the power for Train A when it gets to Elkhart is planned to come back on Train B tomorrow, that's how it works. But since Train A didn't run out of Conway, Conway now has excess power sitting around. The only power that was found to run the train out of Cleveland was yard power, so when the train gets to Elkhart it now not only is late by the schedule, Elkhart has no power to run Train B. So power is either stolen from another train, or they use that yard power to take the train back to Cleveland. But that is Cleveland's yard power, so the train has to set off those engines at Cleveland, or a yard job at Cleveland will nto have power. (This happens on weekends alot for extra trains, we take extra yard engines and run a train with the hopes it gets back to the yard before the M-F yard job is called). Since nothing else is scheduled to work Rockport out of Conway, we now either have to make a special set out at Rockport of the excess power at Conway, or run a light engine move. Both of which are a waste of company resources. If we decide to have a train set out the power that isn't supposed to set out, now we have an extra crew at Conway which needs to be deadheaded home. There is a cost there for the cab ride, plus the crew is getting paid a days wages to do nothing for the company. Again a waste of resources.
Also, trains are run so that there is a crew positioned at the away from home terminal to protect the reverse train (in theory, some pools have assigned trains that turn on specific trains, others are first in first out but there is scheduled to be a balance of trains). Now with how you claim the railroad is ran, you have crews potentially sitting in the hotel at Conway for 36 hours waiting for a train to run because a local hasn't made it back. Or the other way around, the crew that brings in train A is rested at 8am for the which is scheduled to be called at 8am, but there are cars to run at 4 am so run the darn train early. Now we have another crew deadhead over to protect that train, plus most likely have to deadhead the 8am crew back to Cleveland. Quite a waste of resources.So this train is ran unless the powers that be order it not to be ran, which happens very very infrequently. I can think of once maybe twice in the past 2.5 years that we have annuled a train, and that was only because the train was going to be cancelled in the next few days.
You say that I am confusing calling crews with running a scheduled railroad, that makes absolutely no sense. May I ask you do you work in operations side of the railroad? I don't think you do, so please don't make assumptions on what you have seen sitting trackside. For a scheduled railroad to work, a crew has to be called at the same time every day. That's what makes the schedule happen. If you didn't know, crews get a 2 hour call to work, and then usually are alloted 2 hours to build their train and depart the terminal. You also don't appear to understand how locals work. Here we go with that explanation. A local is called at the same time every day, and goes out and switches industries. Typically cars sit in a yard for around 24 hours before the next train picks the cars up. Those cars are scheduled to go out on tomorrows train. Now sometimes the cars are scheduled to go out on the same days train, but for the most part they are not. At a big yard such as Elkhart or Conway, I can pretty much assure you that the locals cars on todays train aren't scheduled to go until tomorrows train. Look at the dwell times for all the Class 1's at their major terminals, most cars are there for at least a day if not more. It takes a lot of effort for a yard to get cars together in the right trains. Now for terminals along the way that don't do a ton of classifying, take for example Mansfield Ohio, some of the cars are scheduled for same day connections. If those cars are not ready, and the train is running early, then it is acceptable to wait for the cars to be ready. However, if the train is late, it is up to the chief dispatcher if the train waits several hours for the cars to be ready. When we are watching the railroad and see that train A hasn't been called at 10am like it supposed to, not only am I calling the yard to find out why, the chief dispatcher is calling the yard to find out why, and if the answers aren't acceptable it goes to higher people than us.

I will stipulate that this is how NS does it, CSX-UP-BNSF may do it differently but I am pretty sure that is of similar design. The next generation of dispatching software is set up to be ran automaticall with the dispatcher adjusting the computers decisions. The computer knows which decision to make, based on the scheduled railroad. Subscirbe to Railway Age, and read some of the interviews with chief executives. They are all preaching some version of the scheduled railroad concept. Any questions feel free to ask.

[Fred]

As a former chief dispr & 20 year train dispr that's the way it was done on Conrail as well. There is a "Big Picture" that not everybody sees.

[Justin]

As a former chief dispr & 20 year train dispr that's the way it was done on Conrail as well. There is a "Big Picture" that not everybody sees.

The fine line between "railfans" and "railroaders"

[MDH]

Wayne - thanks for the detailed explanation. It sure resembles what I see every day 'round here. On NS I see (or hear) mail trains 24M and 20E almost daily and certain manifests on a regular basis around lunchtime but 20G only occasionally and trains like 616 or 416 are almost totally random. On the CSX side, Q637 and Q507 get batted out of Stanley almost like clockwork and even Q506 which terminates at Stanley often shows up around 8AM (blocked my way into work today ). Trains like Q334 (end of it's run) and Q150 are a bit more variable but generally come down the terminal in the morning. etc. etc. etc...

Thanks,
Michael

[gridejq]

The fine line between "think they know it all" and "actually knowing something"....

[GTWTD3]

616 and 416 are non-scheduled unit trains. I don't think you have any 500 series coal trains over there that are scheduled, at least not coming from the PIttsburgh division. THose 574 trains aren't scheduled, that's why they are so random. Come out to Shire Oaks some day and watch the fleet of coal trains departing every day, you'll see some trains that leave there within the same 4 hour period every day.

Like I said, I don't mind sharing my knowledge to those that want to learn. And I'm by no means an expert on stuff, but if I don't know, I'll try and find out. I love the operations side of railroading, it fascinates me how cars are moved from one end of the country to another by various blockings, etc. I guess that's why I have a degree in operations management. Back when I was the number 1 TSBY foamer (at least that's how one engineer liked to make fun of me) I could tell you where every car on their train went, and how it got there. Can't quite do that on a Class 1.

[sd70accsxt700]

Wayne & JQ, you dont know anything, I see right through you guys. WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvCt9XD_oLA