Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Definitive Thread

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Raildudes dad wrote:The PRR north of GR never got any rock ballast until MDOT took over, all local bank run gravel with some cinders.
I should probably do more digging into, but from what I've seen cinders make excellent weed control ballast. I dunno, maybe the pH level of the cinders? Provided it stays 'clean' that is. There were spots in Garrett Yard that were still cinder 'ballast' and they were almost always weed free. They were 'soft' to walk on too. Plus, steam era photos always show the 'immaculate' ROW and even ROW shoulders free of brush, weeds, etc. Maybe it was more aggressive control back then, but I've heard the cinders would 'choke' out a lot of the growth. Even places that had 'slag' ballast on customer spurs seemed to stay weed free. That might have just been coincidence though as they may have been actively spraying.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Both generate high PH values as they "weather" = no weeds :D

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Steam and hot water coming off the old engines did a fair job of cooking weeds when they were young and tender sprouts as well.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Raildudes dad wrote:Both generate high PH values as they "weather" = no weeds :D
It's really this. If the soil pH starts going much above 7-7.3, nothing will grow. Cinders usually 7.7-7.9, which is way too high.
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Moral of the weed control conversation: when in doubt,just run steam locomotives over the line a few dozen times a year lol :D
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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JStryker722 wrote:Moral of the weed control conversation: when in doubt,just run steam locomotives over the line a few dozen times a year lol :D
I'm sure there are cheaper substances to destroy the pH level. Then again, neighbors might not be very happy if you destroy the groundwater, or their plants. :lol:
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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As someone who lives here, please, no tea kettles.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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MagnumForce wrote:As someone who lives here, please, no tea kettles.

But I want to chase said tea kettle while I wear my reflective vest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Oh come on,a few steam locomotives derailing at 10mph can't be that explosive,now can it? :P lol
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Last time I filmed in Defiance, a man I ran into said they should start a dinner train. Imagine plates sliding off tables, drinks spilling and walking back through the tick filled weeds after they derail!

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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alittlevanwerty wrote:Last time I filmed in Defiance, a man I ran into said they should start a dinner train. Imagine plates sliding off tables, drinks spilling and walking back through the tick filled weeds after they derail!
Oh, so you mean like riding Amtrak in the Penn Central days? Ah yes.
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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bdconrail29 wrote:
alittlevanwerty wrote:Last time I filmed in Defiance, a man I ran into said they should start a dinner train. Imagine plates sliding off tables, drinks spilling and walking back through the tick filled weeds after they derail!
Oh, so you mean like riding Amtrak in the Penn Central days? Ah yes.
Or the cincinnati dinner train on the lebanon sub?

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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alittlevanwerty wrote:Last time I filmed in Defiance, a man I ran into said they should start a dinner train. Imagine plates sliding off tables, drinks spilling and walking back through the tick filled weeds after they derail!

Who was the guy who said that? LMAO

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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They would have to totally rehab the track including replacing all the rail to at least 105lb (Like the LRR in Coldwater MI,although I'm guessing that track has been upgraded to 115lb by INER to handle 286,000 standard cars ) before getting the FRA to reclassify the ND&W from what I'm guessing Exempt to Class 1 track to allow for passenger movements.
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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JStryker722 wrote:They would have to totally rehab the track including replacing all the rail to at least 105lb (Like the LRR in Coldwater MI,although I'm guessing that track has been upgraded to 115lb by INER to handle 286,000 standard cars ) before getting the FRA to reclassify the ND&W from what I'm guessing Exempt to Class 1 track to allow for passenger movements.
A lot of the time it isn't necessarily the rail that needs beefing up to handle 286K, but bridges and culverts.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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True but I would think that well worn out rail not replaced in whole since the Wabash/early N&W days would need to be completely upgraded on the stretch of track passenger movements are to take place before any tourist/dinner train could run on the ND&W. Besides it would good to do so anyway for freight movement so that customers along the line could take advantage of the 286k standard,which then makes the ND&W more money.
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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JStryker722 wrote:True but I would think that well worn out rail not replaced in whole since the Wabash/early N&W days would need to be completely upgraded on the stretch of track passenger movements are to take place before any tourist/dinner train could run on the ND&W. Besides it would good to do so anyway for freight movement so that customers along the line could take advantage of the 286k standard,which then makes the ND&W more money.
Whomever said a dinner train operation was a 'good idea' is probably off their rocker.

They're getting mostly 50' box cars in right now. When I worked Y101 that's the bulk of the traffic I remember them getting. Those only load to 263K for the most part. They'll cube them out before they weigh them out. Its the tanks and hoppers that load to the 286K for the most part, and NDW doesn't get too many of those.

The problem with the NDW is they need EVERYTHING. They need ties, but they also need to get their tracks up on some decent ballast. I bet their bridges and culverts are in rough shape if anyone were to take a good look at them. Looking at photos, I'm going to guess their thru truss bridge at Defiance would not handle 286K cars, and it would cost a relative fortune to beef up (or replace) the bridge.

Until you address the roadbed problems, beefing up the rail isn't going to do squat. Problem with that is when they start moving the stuff around to do that, they're going to be snapping the rails they have. It takes a long time to wear out rail laid on tangent track. It may be the head of the rail itself is fine, its just sitting on rotted ties, on no ballast, etc. Just because its 'old' doesn't mean its 'worn out'.

Unless they get some big time customer, keeping their tracks at 263K probably won't hurt them. Also, attracting a 'big customer' is going to be difficult with CSX and NS in such close proximity with high density mainlines. No one is going to want to deal with a short line for a 5, 10, or 15 mile haul when they can locate right on the mainline the cars are going to get onto anyway. Pioneer probably realizes the 'growth' potential for the property isn't the greatest, but it has a steady base of traffic now. As someone else said (or multiple people) in this thread, just get the railroad to a point where you can provide consistent and derailment free service, and that would go a long way to helping their bottom line. No need to spend the millions for a 286K super railroad when the traffic levels probably don't warrant that.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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Not to break away from the ND&W but do you think that everything you said is why the MSO never got their rail replaced unless one snapped?
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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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JStryker722 wrote:Not to break away from the ND&W but do you think that everything you said is why the MSO never got their rail replaced unless one snapped?
From what I've seen, even on the class ones, rails don't get replaced unless they absolutely have to. Just because a rail breaks, doesn't mean it needs replaced. As long as it is a clean break, bring out the drills, throw some bars on it, and start running trains. It takes a lot to really 'wear out' rail on tangent track. We have rail in the yard at Avon that has been in place since the 60's when they built it. Some of that was even relay rail from elsewhere. They've only recently started replacing the oldest of the rail over the last couple summers, and that is only a track at a time when they do the ties. Ties and ballast go a lot further than new rail does.

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Re: Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Beginning

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JStryker722 wrote:Not to break away from the ND&W but do you think that everything you said is why the MSO never got their rail replaced unless one snapped?
Possibly. Independent Paper in Sturgis has been the most consistent customer and most of that is 263k box cars or less. Perhaps if they had kept the Coldwater business and the scrap iron business it may have changed things but with mostly box cars and an occasional covered hopper or tank car it probably doesn't make economic sense to invest in better track.
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